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1
Regimental History / Re: New Perpetuation and New Battle Honour ?
« Last post by wheels on May 20, 2013, 08:22:02 AM »
Thank you aldi and I agree with you. We are getting no where and only ‘flogging a dead horse’, to the other member of the forum.  Unless someone can bring something new there is no use in two (or more) ‘brick-walls’ repeating what has been said before.
I’ll only add, that you (Mike and others), reread my citations, from the source material, not from what I wrote. I did not write the source material.

vaya con Dios
John
2
Regimental History / Re: New Perpetuation and New Battle Honour ?
« Last post by aldi on May 18, 2013, 10:00:24 AM »
Can we move along?  Pleeeeaaaaase!  aldi
3
Regimental History / Re: New Perpetuation and New Battle Honour ?
« Last post by Matt Dickson on May 18, 2013, 08:02:15 AM »
You'd be better off arguing with a brick Mike. This guy is going to argue and argue and argue til you give him what he wants just to make him shut up. Hmmmmm, I just describe my kids when they were 5 years old.  ::)
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Regimental History / Re: New Perpetuation and New Battle Honour ?
« Last post by Michael OLeary on May 17, 2013, 08:42:07 PM »
Michael, I believe that The Regiment can build pride in the contributions of the ‘Voluntary Flank Companies’, of the 1st Regiment of Middlesex and the 1st Regiment of Oxford, by using all available writings to explain why we have these Battle Honours and what our ancestral soldiers accomplished to have these Battle Honours emblazoned.

John, what source do you have that explicitly states that the flank companies as distinct units or sub-units (complete or otherwise described indicating strengths, commanders, etc., or any other particular supporting details) were present at Detroit? Or are you still making assumptions based on generalized descriptions of the action.

In your opinion, why should we not emblazon these Battle Honours and why, you believe, that we cannot build pride in them?

I have not expressed an opinion one way or anther on this point. My question has been, and remains, what were the particular contributions of the regiments we have been handed perpetuation for in 2012. On that information a case may be built for the Regiment to consider emblazonment. There is no reason to keep referencing the 1950s amalgamation; these new perpetuations have nothing to do with that. The RCR perpetuates these honours granted for the 1st Regiment of Middlesex and 1st Regiment of Oxford because a battalion of the Regiment still recruits in the same areas. --- NOT via the Oxford Rifles and the Canadian Fusiliers.
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Regimental History / Re: New Perpetuation and New Battle Honour ?
« Last post by wheels on May 17, 2013, 10:33:37 AM »
Quote
If we are to build pride in the contributions of the 1st Regiment of Middlesex and the 1st Regiment of Oxford, should we not at least know what their soldiers did? It is time we moved beyond claiming that we should be proud of lists of honours without knowing and building upon their historical context.

Michael, I believe that The Regiment can build pride in the contributions of the ‘Voluntary Flank Companies’, of the 1st Regiment of Middlesex and the 1st Regiment of Oxford, by using all available writings to explain why we have these Battle Honours and what our ancestral soldiers accomplished to have these Battle Honours emblazoned. We have some ‘first-hand’ accounts, (composed over the last two hundred years), relating to the award of these Battle Honours, from The War of 1812.  However, since the Regiment has accepted these Battle Honours, we are bound (in my opinion) to emblazon them according to the dictates of the Directorate of History and Heritage1. We simply explain to our present day soldiers, these Battle Honours, the same way we explained that upon the amalgamation 25 Apr 1958, our Regimental Birthdate is now 14 Aug 1863 and that 21 Dec 1881 is still of great importance, because this places us first on the regular roll of the Infantry Regiments of Canada.

We must rely on the writings that have been left to us over the last two centuries, as well, as on the findings of the Allison Committee2 of 1881 and the Adjutant-General’s Committee3 of 1911, in regards to belatedly awarded Battle Honours.

We must not rely on the criteria of to-day, concerning the award of these belatedly awarded Battle Honours, but, must understand the reasoning used in 1816, when these Battle Honours were originally awarded, and the criteria enunciated (ie, 2results and circumstances2) by the Allison Committee of 1881.

You have been very diligent in having me prove my case for the emblazoning of these Battle Honours. I think that it is time for you to explain your reasons as to why we should not.
In your opinion, why should we not emblazon these Battle Honours and why, you believe, that we cannot build pride in them?

vaya con Dios
John

NOTES
     1 - e-mail from DHH, on 03 May 2010 at 11:02 AM; in part says :
          Current emblazonment policy for battle honours on Regimental Colours - as detailed in Canadian Forces Publication 200 "The
          Heritage Structure of the Canadian Forces" - lays out the following :
               (1) there is no limit to the number of pre-1914 battle honours which may be emblazoned;
               (2) a maximum of ten battle honours from the First World War may be emblazoned;
               (3) a maximum of ten battle honours from the Second World War may be displayed; and
               (4) a maximum of two battle honours from United Nations Operations - Korea 1950-1953 may be emblazoned.
          Ken Reynolds, PhD; Assistant Canadian Forces Heritage Officer / Officier adjoint du patrimoine des Forces canadiennes
          Directorate of History and Heritage (DHH 6-2) / Direction - Histoire et patrimoine (DHP 6-2)
          Chief of Military Personnel (CMP) / Chef du personnel militaire (CPM)
          National Defence Headquarters (NDHQ) / Quartier général de la Défense nationale (QGDN)
          101 Colonel By Drive / 101 promenade Colonel By, Ottawa, ON K1A 0K2; Telephone / Téléphone 613-998-7224
          Fax / Télécopieur 613-990-8579; Teletypewriter (National Defence) / Téléimprimeur (Défense nationale) 1-800-467-9877
          Government of Canada / Gouvernement du Canada . ken.reynolds@forces.gc.ca

     2 - In 1881 a Committee under the Presidency of Gen Sir Archibald Alison, 2nd Bt, was appointed to look into the matter of
          granting Battle Honours, belatedly. Up to this time, Battle Honours had only been awarded for battles during the turbulent years
          between 1793 and 1815. Some Regiments, with over some 100 years of good and loyal service, still  had no Battle Honours on
          their Colours, even after the massive amalgamations of 1881. Alison’s committee came to the conclusion that, “the names of
          such victories only should be retained as either, by themselves or by their results have left a mark in history which render their
          names familiar, not only to the British Army, but also to every educated gentleman”.
               Source : Norman, CB, ‘Battle Honours of the British Army’, Chap XXVII, pgs 433-436; John Murray, Albemarle Street, W,
                             London,  1911.


     3 - Again, in 1910, another committee, under the able Presidency of the Adjutant-General, had adjudicated what Alison’s
          Committee had decided on. The Regiments of the Army owe a deep debt of gratitude to the labour exerted by this Committee,
          although it was an incomplete job. Their task was by no means a light one. This committee was guided by two main principles
          in their selection of Battle Honours. One, “that no distinction should be granted unless the Regimental Headquarters was
          present in the engagement”. Two, that Honours should only be conferred on Regiments with “a continuous history from the
          date of the action. A break in the direct genealogical succession would invalidate the claim”.
               Source : Norman, CB, ‘Battle Honours of the British Army’, Chap XXVII, pgs 433-436; John Murray, Albemarle Street, W,     
                             London, 1911.

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Regimental History / Re: New Perpetuation and New Battle Honour ?
« Last post by Michael OLeary on May 17, 2013, 12:04:59 AM »
Quote
What did the 1st Regiment of Middlesex and the 1st Regiment of Oxford do at Detroit - as identifiable separate units of Militia? In what strength did they deploy, under whose command, and what material contribution did they make to the outcome of the skirmish?

Reference :#21 (above) of 01 May 2013; 23:36:31 hrs

Michael, I can tell you that they did exactly what the other units present at Detroit did, including the 41st Foot. They obeyed Maj-Gen Isaac Brock’s orders and positioned themselves for the assault, but before they could advance, Detroit surrendered.

As you have proven John, there does not appear to be available references that actually differentiate that mass of Militiamen into the contributing units. As a result, battle honours were created in 2012 based on lists of units that were stated to have men present, regardless of strengths, organization or confirmed participation in any specific part of the actions that led to Detroit's surrender. Personally, I believe the Regiment still deserves to have the question answered.

Quote
What did the 1st Regiment of Middlesex and the 1st Regiment of Oxford do at Detroit - as identifiable separate units of Militia? In what strength did they deploy, under whose command, and what material contribution did they make to the outcome of the skirmish?

Vaguely wrapping them up in the generalized description of "the militia troops" does not answer that question. The fact that many past authors have been satisfied with that generalization doesn't make it a valid reply to the specific question related to understanding the uniqueness of any honour handed to The RCR. Accepting the generalization only sidesteps the actual question which should be answered to build a connection to the Regiments we are now supposed to perpetuate.

If we are to build pride in the contributions of the 1st Regiment of Middlesex and the 1st Regiment of Oxford, should we not at least know what their soldiers did? It is time we moved beyond claiming that we should be proud of lists of honours without knowing and building upon their historical context.

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Regimental History / Re: New Perpetuation and New Battle Honour ?
« Last post by wheels on May 16, 2013, 12:08:38 AM »
Quote
What did the 1st Regiment of Middlesex and the 1st Regiment of Oxford do at Detroit - as identifiable separate units of Militia? In what strength did they deploy, under whose command, and what material contribution did they make to the outcome of the skirmish?

Reference :#21 (above) of 01 May 2013; 23:36:31 hrs

Michael, I can tell you that they did exactly what the other units present at Detroit did, including the 41st Foot. They obeyed Maj-Gen Isaac Brock’s orders and positioned themselves for the assault, but before they could advance, Detroit surrendered.
     The Flank Companies of the 41st Foot were originally awarded this honour in 1816. It was extended to the whole Regiment in 1824.
     All the Militia Units, that showed up at Detroit, consisted of their volunteer flank companies, mainly because of the fact that Upper Canada was an agricultural based economy and most members of the compulsory sedentary militia could not be spared for offensive operations and also because of suspect loyalties  (most of the western part of Upper Canada was settled by immigrants from the United States)A.
     Since there was no actual combat (except for an artillery duel) or an assault, this honour could only have been awarded for the results and circumstancesB, C, D & E of the ‘encounter’ or ‘affair’. Brock was also outnumberedF by the Americans, under Brig-Gen William Hull. To visibly increase his numbers of regular troops, Brock had many of the militiamen wear the cast-off red-coatsG of the 41st Foot.

The following quotations (lettered superscript, above) will help to illustrate this :

     A - Report No. 6; Directorate of History, Canadian Forces Headquarters, 30 June 1966; ‘Canadian Militia prior to Confederation’ :
                87. One of Sir George Prevost's first decisions, after assuming office on 14 September 1811, was to send Major-General
                      Isaac Brock to Upper Canada to act as Administrator, so that Lieutenant-Governor Gore could have some leave in Great
                      Britain. There were only the 41st Regiment of Foot and the 10th Royal Veteran Battalion in Upper Canada to garrison its
                      widely scattered forts. The militia was calculated at 11,000 men, “of which it might not be prudent to arm more than
                      4,000, “78 since “loyalist stock accounted for only one-sixth of the population and emigrants from the British Isles and
                      their  children for another one-fifth.”79

                88. Major-General Brock had some success with his preparedness programme, even though a bill to suspend habeas corpus
                      was defeated in the Legislative Assembly because of the “great influence which the numerous settlers from the United
                      States” possessed and because of the prevalent belief that war was unlikely.80 The Militia Act of 1808 was extended and
                      supplementary clauses authorized the formation of flank companies, each of 100 volunteers, for every sedentary militia
                      regiment. These flank companies were to train six days a month until they became proficient . There was no provision
                      for pay but, according to the new Militia Act, volunteers “shall not be liable to any personal Arrest on any Civil Process,
                      or to serve as Juror, or to perform duty as a Town or Parish Officer, or Statute labour on the Highways, during the time
                      he shall continue in such flank companies any law to the contrary in any wise  notwithstanding.”81 Brock had requested
                      clothing for his militia but, since it would be some time before it arrived, his Adjutant General of Militia issued a circular
                      letter suggesting that each man provide himself with a “Short Coat of some dark colored Cloth to button well round the
                      Body, and Pantaloons suited to the Season, with the addition of a Round Hat.”82 As much  uniformity as possible was
                      desired. Such clothing would be equally suitable for civilian use. Officers were  further advised, when in the field, to
                      dress in conformity to the men “in order to avoid the bad consequence of a conspicuous dress.”

          NOTES
               78. Prevost to Liverpool, 18 May 1812, C.O. 42/146 (PRO).
               79. Michael Smith, A Geographical View, of the Province of Upper Canada and promiscuous remarks upon the
                     Government, etc. Hartford, Conn., 1813, 62.
               80. Tupper, The Life and Correspondence of Major-General Sir Isaac Brock, 153

     B - Whitfield, Carol; ‘The Battle of Queenston Heights’; Canadian Historic Sites; Occasional Papers in Archaeology and History,
           No 11, National Historic Sites Service, National and Historic Parks Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern
           Development, Ottawa, 1974, pgs 28-29.
                Meanwhile, of course, Brock was concerned with the military defence of the colony. Early in Dec 1811, Brock wrote to
           Prevost stating his ideas about the strategy they should follow in the event of war. Brock believed that Amherstburg was the
           key; from here offensive operations could be launched which would hold the Americans in check and keep them on the
           defensive from Niagara west. The Indians would be essential to assist the British in this area but their help could not be
           depended upon until the British had captured Detroit and Michilimackinac. Pointing out the vital situation of Kingston, Brock
           advised stationing a large force of Regulars and Glengarry Militia there. ……………………. .56
                Prevost, however cautioned against initiating offensive measures and worried about controlling the actions of Indians
           fighting for the British.57   
                There was a basic deference in the strategy of the two men. Brock wanted to hold onto Upper Canada by offensive action;
           Prevost wanted to fight defensively, retaining Upper Canada as long as possible and then fighting a rearguard action as the
           forces retreated to Quebec, the only defensible position in British North America. Holed up in the citadel, the British forces
           would wait until Britain, having defeated Napoleon Bonaparte, could send aid.  Then go on the offensive and recover Upper
           Canada. Brock, however, seemed to ignore Britain’s struggle in Europe.

           NOTES
                56 - PAC,RG 8, Vol 673, pgs 171-182, Brock to Prevost, York, 3 Dec 1811.
                57 - Ibid, Vol 1218, pgs 108-111, Prevost to Brock, Quebec, 24 Dec 1811.

C - Casselman, Alexander Clark, Editor of “Richardson’s War of 1812”; Coles Canadiana Collection, originally Published 1902 by
           the Historical Publishing Company, Toronto, Ontario. This edition was Published by Coles Publishing Company, Toronto,
           Ontario, 1974,pg 85-87.
           “In the capture of Detroit, General Brock has been termed the saviour of Canada, and most deservedly so. Had he not struck the
           blow he did, and at the time he did, at the American power in the West, Upper Canada --- nay both the Canadas must have been
           yielded to the triumphant arms of the United States. At this period the whole force of the Province consisted of four Regiments
           of the line, namely the 8th, 41st, 49th and 100th and added to these, the Canadian and Glengarry Fencibles and a few companies
           of Veterans and of the Royal Newfoundland Regiment, So insignificant a force could have availed little against the hordes of
           American Irregular Troops, which would have been poured in from the west, along the Delaware and Burlington routes, and
           which moving in rear of the Centre and Left Divisions, must necessarily cut off their communications with the interior of the
           country and so straightened their supplies as to have rendered them an eventual conquest. That General Hull would have
           recovered from the temporary panic, which seems to have induced his relinquishment of his position at Sandwich there can be
           no matter of doubt; but even if he not done so, and reduced Amherstburg, which was of vital importance to the American
           interests, there were other leaders and other Armies, already on their way to reinforce him, and the subjugation of the Western
           District must, on their arrival, have been assured. What then would have been the result? Half the Indians, already bearing arms
           on our side, would either have seceded from a cause which they conceived us helpless to defend, of have joined the American
           flag, while those who were undecided which party to join, would have thrown their influence and numbers into the opposite
           ranks. As General Hull has truly stated in his official letter, most of the Militia if the District ---- particularly the French-
           Canadian portion of the population, were daily thinning our ranks, by returning to their homes, and it required but some strong
           and effective demonstration, on the part of the enemy, to have left the regular troops in the West to their own unaided exertions,
           Fortunately it was fated to be otherwise. General Brock, with that keenness of perception and promptitude of action, which was
           so eminently characteristic of his brief but glorious career, at once saw the danger and flew to meet and avert it. He well knew
           that, on the destruction of the North-Western Army, depended the safety of the Province committed to his charge, and the
           enterprise, which he himself has termed hazardous, was periled only after profound reflection and conviction. He justly
           entertained the belief that while, on the one hand, the slightest delay and incertitude of action, would be fatal to the interests of
           Great Britain inasmuch as it must have, a tendency to discourage, not only the inhabitants of the Province, but our Indian
           Allies, there was, on the other, every probability that an immediate and vigorous attack, upon an enemy, who had lost so much
           time, in inactivity, and who had abandoned so many advantages, would be crowned with success. It was a bold --- an almost
           dangerous measure; but the danger to the country was greater, and he resolved to try the issue. He succeeded; from that hour
           Canada was saved.”

     D - Norman, CB, ‘Battle Honours of the British Army’, Chap XXVII, pgs 433-436; John Murray, Albemarle Street, W, London,   
           1911.
                Since all of our original traditions have come down to us from the British Army, that has to be our start point.
                In 1881 a Committee under the Presidency of Gen Sir Archibald Alison, 2nd Bt, was appointed to look into the matter of
           granting Battle Honours, belatedly. Up to this time, Battle Honours had only been awarded for battles during the turbulent years
           between 1793 and 1815. Some Regiments, with over some 100 years of good and loyal service, still  had no Battle Honours on
           their Colours, even after the massive amalgamations of 1881. Alison’s committee came to the conclusion that, “the names of
           such victories only should be retained as either, by themselves or by their results have left a mark in history which render their
           names familiar, not only to the British Army, but also to every educated gentleman”.
                Again, in 1910, another committee, under the able Presidency of the Adjutant-General, had adjudicated what Alison’s
           Committee had decided on. The Regiments of the Army owe a deep debt of gratitude to the labour exerted by this Committee,
           although it was an incomplete job. Their task was by no means a light one. This committee was guided by two main principles
           in their selection of Battle Honours. One, “that no distinction should be granted unless the Regimental Headquarters was
           present in the engagement”. Two, that Honours should only be conferred on Regiments with “a continuous history from the
           date of the action. A break in the direct genealogical succession would invalidate the claim”.
                Despite these two qualifiers, Battle Honours Committees, have continued to give ‘lip service’ to the award of Battle
           Honours. They seemed to want to grant Honours … not in a greedy grab for Honours … but according to the circumstances
           prevailing at the time and place. Many Battle Honours awarded subsequently by these two Committees, when studied, do not
           meet the criteria as set down, but instead were awarded mostly according to results gained by what was achieved.

     E - Web-site; `Siege of Detroit` at : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Detroit
                The news of the surrender of Hull's army was startling on both sides of the border. On the American side, many Indians took
           up arms and attacked American settlements and isolated military outposts22. In Upper Canada, the population and militia were
           encouraged, particularly in the Western districts where they had been threatened by Hull's army. Brock overlooked the local
           militia's former reluctance to perform their duty, instead rewarding those militiamen who had remained at their posts. More
           materially, the 2,500 muskets captured from Hull were distributed among the hitherto ill-equipped militia.
                The British gained an important post on American territory and won control over Michigan Territory and the Detroit region
           for most of the following year. Brock was hailed as a hero, and Tecumseh's influence over the confederation of natives was
           strengthened.

           NOTE
                22 - Elting, John R. (1995). Amateurs to Arms. New York: Da Capo Press. ISBN 0-306-80653-3, pp.36-37

     F - Hitsman, J. Mackay (1999). The Incredible War of 1812. Robin Brass Studio. ISBN 1-896941-13-3

          United States Forces                                       British Forces
           582 regulars                                             330 regulars
                1,600+ militia                                                 400 militia
                                                                                 600 Natives
                30 guns1                                 5 light guns
                                                                                      3 heavy guns, 2 mortars
                                                                                 2 warships2
   
               Total all personnel : 2,182 +                     Total all personnel : 1m330
   
            NOTES
                 1 - Hitsman, J. Mackay (1999). The Incredible War of 1812. Robin Brass Studio. ISBN 1-896941-13-3, p.81
                 2 - Hitsman, J. Mackay (1999). The Incredible War of 1812. Robin Brass Studio. ISBN 1-896941-13-3, pp.79-80

     G - Katcher, Philip RN; ‘The American War of 1812’; Osprey; Men At Arms Series; Published 1974 by Osprey Publishing Ltd, 
           PO Box 25, 707 Oxford road, Reading, Berkshire, England, pg 5; ISBN 0-85045-197-3
           “….. his regulars and militia, and dressed the latter in old 41st coatees, mixing them one militiaman to every two regulars to   
           give the impression of a large regular force.”

vaya con Dios
John
8
Regimental History / Re: New Perpetuation and New Battle Honour ?
« Last post by Michael OLeary on May 09, 2013, 12:32:46 PM »
John, you are building a case based on errors and anomalies, and trying to declare them useful precedent. The question remains:

"What did the 1st Regiment of Middlesex and the 1st Regiment of Oxford do at Detroit - as identifiable separate units of Militia? In what strength did they deploy, under whose command, and what material contribution did they make to the outcome of the skirmish?"

As long as the answers get bowled under by vague descriptions of what "the Militia" did en masse, never even confirming who was where, it is a weak argument to push for the Regiment to do anything except carry the Honours as they have been told to do. There is no obligation to emblazon them, and doing so does not strengthen our understanding of your history when there have been no detailed facts presented. If you want attention paid to these honours, then find the details that support them.
9
Regimental History / Re: New Perpetuation and New Battle Honour ?
« Last post by wheels on May 09, 2013, 08:57:00 AM »
Quote
John, can you find an example of a British Army Battle Honour given for the presence of one man on the battlefield from a Regiment?

Michael, the only example that I can give you, is GUZERAT [ 1778-1782]. The Royal Dublin Fusiliers (at that time known as the 1st Bombay European Regiment) and The Royal Munster Fusiliers (at that time known as the 1st Bengal European Regiment) were awarded the Battle Honour, “GUZERAT’. In this case the R Dublin’s were present, but, the R Munster’s were not1. This is maintained by Col PR Innes, the painstaking and accurate Historian of the Royal Munster Fusiliers. This error was not corrected as the Royal Munster Fusiliers were disbanded on 01 Jul 1922 upon the Independence of the Irish Republic.

SOURCE :
     1 - Norman, CB, ‘Battle Honours of the British Army’, Introduction, pg xxiii; John Murray, Albemarle Street, W, London, 1911.

In regards to your quote (above), all I can state is what CB Norman, in his ‘Battle Honours of the British Army’, Introduction, pg xxiii; John Murray, Albemarle Street, W, London, 1911,  stated in 1911 :

The whole question of the award of Battle Honours abounds in anomalies. Paltry skirmishes have been immortalized and many gallant fights have been left unrecorded. In some cases certain Corps have been singled out for honour; others; which bore an equal share in the same days doings, have been denied the privilege of assuming the Battle Honour. In some campaigns every skirmish has been handed down to posterity, in others, one word has covered long years of fighting. MYSORE [ 1792-1799 ] with its one Battle Honour and PERSIA [ 1856-1857 ] with four Battle Honours, are cases in point. In some instances honours have been refused on the plea that the Headquarters of the Regiment was not present in the action; in others the honour has been granted when but a single troop or company has shared in the fight. There are Regiments whose Colours bear the names of battles in which they did not lose a single man, others have suffered heavy losses in historic battles, which are as yet unrecorded.

Quote
I am quite certain that a more rigorous approach was used to award the British Battle Honours, even in 1816.

I can propose an explanation, that, since its earliest days, the British Military was more rigorously concerned with the honour of every single Officer under its command and only paid ‘lip-service’ to an Officers education. RMC - Sandhurst, had already been founded and was starting to turn-out excellent ‘officers and gentlemen’. Nowadays, education and honour are almost equal, but I believe that, honour is still the most important.

---------

This will be the second time1 (and here you may or may not correct me) that Canada has decided to award Battle Honours, instead of awarding Battle Honours instituted by the United Kingdom. I believe that these Battle Honours do follow the precedence practiced by the British Authorities of the period 1793-1910. They may not have followed the written word, but, the results and circumstances of the events (that led to an award), were used. Yes, Detroit was, if anything, an ‘encounter ‘and not even on the level of a skirmish, but its surrender was of greater importance for it effects among the Native Indians, who now sided with the British cause and even the white population of Upper Canada (who were mostly immigrants from the United States), who, now, either joined the British cause, or stayed neutral during the war (yes, there were some who joined the American cause).

NOTE : 1 - The Fenian Raids of 1870 saw two honours, Eccles Hill and Trout River. The first was won by two militia infantry
                 Battalions and the second by one.
                      Not only were these honours the first awarded to units of the new Dominion of Canada, they were awarded under
                 the local authority of the Governor General and not the British government. The British, upset over the lack of
                 standards that saw honours issued for essentially bloodless skirmishes, quickly re-established control and no further
                 honours were given for the Fenian Raids.
                     The three units that received the Fenian Raids honours kept them. Although two of them no longer exist, the
                 Victoria Rifles of Canada still does, at least on paper. It was reduced to nil strength and moved to the Supplementary
                 Order of Battle in 1965.
                 Source : Defence Today - Canada’s Battle Honours”; 01 Sep 2003; by John Boileau

vaya con Dios
John
10
Regimental History / Re: New Perpetuation and New Battle Honour ?
« Last post by wheels on May 05, 2013, 07:41:50 AM »
Quote
...and in 1816 "every educated gentleman” though slavery was ok. Give it up dude.

Thank-you Matt for briefly and concisely proving my point. You mixed a statement made in 1881 with a statement made in 2013, that does not make much sense and readers are left wondering as to what is trying to be said.
This is the essence of my post.
What was considered correct in 1816 was not the same in 1881 and what was said in 1881 makes no sense when used in 2013.
That is one aspect that all concerned in these Honours must take into account when making any decision (for or against) in emblazoning these new Honours bestowed by our Government, using the DHH process of perpetuation.

vaya con Dios
John
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