Battle Honours of The RCR #3 - Great War Battle Honours Revisited; 25 or 49?

[Michael OLeary]

I have added the following article to my website section on the Regiment's Battle Honours:

Battle Honours of The Royal Canadian Regiment
Great War Battle Honours Revisited; 25 or 49?

In articles in past editions of Pro Patria, I have raised the subject of our regimental Battle Honours. During my time as Regimental Adjutant, I showed that the Regimental Catechism had erroneously reported for many years that "the Regiment [had] been awarded 54 battle honours" and established that the correct number should read 57.i

I have also identified that only 16 of the Regiment's 25 battle honours for the First World War were awarded for the actions of The Royal Canadian Regiment as a unit of the Canadian Expeditionary Force (CEF).ii The other nine battle honours we carry for the Great War come from our perpetuation of the 1st Canadian Infantry Battalion (8)iii and the 2nd Battalion, Canadian Machine Gun Corps (1).iv Notably, four of the 1st Canadian Infantry Battalion's battle honours date from before The RCR arrived in France.

Read more at the link.

[wheels]

In your chart of where the Regiment's Battle Honours originally came from, I noticed that you omitted the BHs of the Oxford Rifles (inherited from the 168th Bn, CEF) as well as to which BHs the previous Regiments emblazoned on their colours / drums. Will this chart be amended in the future ?

JN Heddle

[Michael OLeary]

The Oxford Rifles perpetuated the 71st and 168th Canadian Infantry Battalions.

The 71st Cdn Inf Bn had no service as a unit beyond England and was awarded only the theatre battle honour "The Great War, 1916." The battalion was absorbed into the 44th, 51st, 54th and 74th Battalions.

The 168th Cdn Inf Bn had no service as a unit beyond England and was awarded only the theatre battle honour "The Great War, 1916-17." The battalion was absorbed into the 4th and 6th Reserve Battalions.

Theatre Battle Honours, when combined with other unit honours on amalgamation, are not maintained independently from other theatre honours with broader dates, they are combined with the broadest dates then presented.

Later, in 1930, the Oxford Rifles were awarded a subsequent list of Battle Honours, but no specific connection to individual CEF units was identified and no additional perpetuation was identified to connect these to specific battlefield actions by any particular units.  These are shown in the regimental timeline chart I created and that is posted on the regimental website - http://www.theroyalcanadianregiment.ca/history/RCR_timeline_20nov07_1MB.jpg

The Canadian Fusiliers perpetuated the 1st, 33rd, and 142nd Canadian Infantry battalions, as well as the 2nd Battalion, Canadian Machine Gun Corps, through the 2nd Bn CMGC (1919-1936) of the Canadian Militia.

The 33rd Cdn Inf Bn was awarded only the theatre battle honour "The Great War, 1916."

The 142nd Cdn Inf Bn was awarded only the theatre battle honour "The Great War, 1916."

Similarly, these threatre battle honours are within the broader combined theatre award for "The Great War", i.e., France and Flanders 1915-1918.

The Battle Honours of the 1st Cdn Inf Bn and the 2nd Bn CMGC are detailed in the referenced paper.  These, plus the battle honours of The RCR combine to form the full list of Battle Honours representing battlefield actions by these units that are now carried by The RCR.


If you still think I've missed something, please be more specific and provide references.


My references, other than the regimental history, include:

1.  Appendix to General Order No. 110 of 1929; Battle Honours Awarded for the Great War, List No. 1
2.  Appendix to General Order No. 123 of 1929; Battle Honours Awarded for the Great War, List No. 2
3.  Appendix to General Order No. 71 of 1930; Battle Honours Awarded for the Great War, List No. 3
4.  John F. Meek, Over the Top!; The Canadian Infantry in the First World war, 1971

[wheels]

1 - The chart you show of the WW I BHs did not show a column for the Oxford Rifles and I was wondering why this was omitted.
2 - In regards to emblazoned BHs, I'm asking if the Army is considering the possibility of increasing the number of emblazoned BHs
     when Regiments are amalgamated, to 20, as the UK Army has already done. I realize that in an amalgamation of a Regular Regiment
     with Reserve Regiments (as in the case of the RCR) that precedence is given to the Regular Regiment as to Birth Date; Colours; etc.  
     The History will have the Reserve Regiment's Histories added in. However, should not the emblazoned BHs of the Reserve Regiments be
     on an equal basis with the Regular Regiment ? Specifically I name the following emblazoned BHs [by Regiment] that are not emblazoned :
          FESTUBERT 1915 (emblazoned by Cdn Fus);
          ARRAS 1917 (emblazoned by Ox Rif & Cdn Fus); '18 (emblazoned by Ox Rif; Cdn Fus & 2nd MG Bn);
          SCARPE 1918 (emblazoned by the 2nd MG Bn);
          DROCOURT-QUEANT (emblazoned by both the Cdn Fus and the 2nd MG Bn, CEF);
          CANAL du NORD; (emblazoned by both the Cdn Fus and the 2nd MG Bn, CEF);
          CAMBRAI 1918; (emblazoned by 2nd MG Bn);
          FRANCE and FLANDERS 1918 (emblazoned by the 2nd MG Bn, CEF).
3 - My references are the same as yours, specifically; your #4 - "Over the Top".
     (There are at least three other books, one Government  Publication (Regiments and Corps of the Canadian Army); one a Regimental Pamphlet (The    
      Oxford Rifles) and another Book dealing with the Histories of all PAM and NPAM Units that had ever served in the Canadian Army.)

JN Heddle

[Michael OLeary]

1. The chart did not list the Oxford Rifles for the same reason it did not list The Canadian Fusiliers.  In order to simplify the intermediate steps, I went back to the originating units of the battle honours, i.e., the fighting units of the Canadian Expeditionary Force that are perpetuated by The RCR. 

That approach did not require an extensive sidebar discussion of how the Oxford Rifles were awarded some Battle Honours in 1930, but without any attendant formal perpetuation.  The award of later battle honours in such a manner to some units that did not perpetuate fighting battalions of the CEF is an indistinct and undocumented process depending on estimates of numbers of men who were posted from unit to unit and were therefore presumed to be in particular battle areas.  This approach balanced politics and regimental appeasement with ensuring more Militia regiments got some credit when the system of perpetuation was unable to align CEF fighting units with a greater number of Militia regiments.

Regardless, the deeper minutia of the more vague aspects of perpetuation (by a committee that notably left little if any detailed documentation) are beyond the core thrust of these articles.  Few Royal Canadians fully understand the Regiment was in Bermuda in 1914-15, let alone understand the background of perpetuation, amalgamation and the regiment's battle honours.  I'm working on opening that door to understanding without an overwhelming amount of detail that requires lengthy sidebar explanations. The origins of our battle honours that can actually be linked to specific fighting units and battlefield actions establishes a basis of the range of events the Regiment may be asked to commemorate between 2014 and 2018 - and understanding the roles of the three fighting units is more central to that understanding than later tweaking of the system of perpetuation and later award of battle honours. Let's get over that first hurdle and then we can discuss all the implications of the smaller details afterwards.

2.  No, not that I am aware of. 

3.  I also have "Regiments and Corps", it does not add anything particular to the discussion (and was a principal document in establishing the outlines of the lineage chart).  I also have a healthy distrust of any regimentally produced documents unless the details can be corroborated in official documents.  No regiment ever played a small part in its own regimental history and points of view are always the more favorable of the options.


It is interesting that you raise these points now, 50 years after the amalgamation.  If anything, those who would speak of the Oxford Rifles and the Canadian Fusiliers have been unseen and unheard throughout my 25+ years in the Regiment.  My own work on the regimental lineage and battle honours has been the first time any of the details of these units and where they lie in the regimental history has graced any of our publications (including website and museum) for many years.  It is interesting that instead of being supportive and working on bringing forth more stories, you choose to criticise those efforts on an obscure point. 

I would invite you to start a new thread and present the full details of the Oxford Rifles Battle Honours, how they came to be, and to document how they exist outside of the formal lines of perpetuation.  The Regimental Adjutant would also be interesting in articles of amalgamated and perpetuated units for the regimental journal and website.

Pro Patria

[wheels]

Your last paragraph is most stimulating and challenging. I may do as you suggest, but I'm out of the country for the winter and away for my files, so it will have to wait for later in the year.
By the way it was not meant as a criticism. Just the musings of an old man.

JN Heddle

[bjmaclean]

Well with out having the files to reseach and not being a true history buff, I tend to suppot Mr Oleary's info as I know him to be a person who would search in detail to find out information needed to support such a claim. I hope that JN Heddle is able to support his claim in some way. Good Luck

[wheels]

2 - In regards to emblazoned BHs, I'm asking if the Army is considering the possibility of increasing the number of emblazoned BHs
     when Regiments are amalgamated, to 20, as the UK Army has already done. I realize that in an amalgamation of a Regular Regiment
     with Reserve Regiments (as in the case of the RCR) that precedence is given to the Regular Regiment as to Birth Date; Colours; etc.  
     The History will have the Reserve Regiment's Histories added in. However, should not the emblazoned BHs of the Reserve Regiments be
     on an equal basis with the Regular Regiment ? Specifically I name the following emblazoned BHs [by Regiment] that are not emblazoned :
          FESTUBERT 1915 (emblazoned by Cdn Fus);
          ARRAS 1917 (emblazoned by Ox Rif & Cdn Fus); '18 (emblazoned by Ox Rif; Cdn Fus & 2nd MG Bn);
          SCARPE 1918 (emblazoned by the 2nd MG Bn);
          DROCOURT-QUEANT (emblazoned by both the Cdn Fus and the 2nd MG Bn, CEF);
          CANAL du NORD; (emblazoned by both the Cdn Fus and the 2nd MG Bn, CEF);
          CAMBRAI 1918; (emblazoned by 2nd MG Bn);
          FRANCE and FLANDERS 1918 (emblazoned by the 2nd MG Bn, CEF).

Does any one know how the process, to increase emblazoned Battle Honours of amalgamated Regiments, starts and progresses to a result, one way or the other?

Pro Patria

via con Dios

JN Heddle

[Michael OLeary]

From A-AD-200-000/AG-000 THE HONOURS, FLAGS AND HERITAGE STRUCTURE OF THE CANADIAN FORCES (1991-01-04):

The battle honours which each regiment has selected to be displayed on Colours or appointments are authorized by bold type in A-AD-267-000/AF-003, Insignia and Lineages of the Canadian Forces (Combat Arms Regiments), revised edition, to be issued. Requests to change these selections must originate from regiments and be approved by NDHQ/DHH on the recommendation of the branch advisor.

There are also limits on the number of honours to be emblazoned:

Prior to the First World War - no limit
First World War - 10
Second World War - 10
Korea - 2
Special Duty Area/Persian Gulf - not applicable

Since all of the emblazoned First World War battle honours currently emblazoned on the Regimental Colours are also from those of the perpetuated units, what advantage would be gained by any changes?

[wheels]

Since all of the emblazoned First World War battle honours currently emblazoned on the Regimental Colours are also from those of the perpetuated units, what advantage would be gained by any changes?

1 - Yes, it has been established that only a maximum of 10 Battle Honours from WW I and WW II can be emblazoned, and only 2
     from the Korean War. There is no limit before 1914.

2 - Perhaps, I should have added; beyond the authorized 10, to include up to 20. The British Army managed to do this. The Canadian
     Forces have a habit of following the British Army lead - most of the time, but not every time. Will the CF follow, the British lead,
     in the case of our amalgamated Regiments? or has this never been thought of?

3 - But, my question was; “Does any one know how the process, to increase emblazoned Battle Honours of amalgamated Regiments,
     starts and progresses to a result, one way or the other?"

4 - The only Battle Honour (from an amalgamated Regiment) to be emblazoned on the Colours of The RCR, was YPRES 1915 (from
     The Canadian Fusiliers (City of London Regiment) (MG)). But, this was easily accomplished, since The RCR had already emblazoned
     YPRES 1917,

5 - But there are at least 7 other Battle Honours from the amalgamated Regiments that were not emblazoned by The RCR.
     They were as follows :
          FESTUBERT 1915 (emblazoned by Cdn Fus);
          ARRAS 1917 (emblazoned by Ox Rif & Cdn Fus); '18 (emblazoned by Ox Rif; Cdn Fus & 2nd MG Bn);
          SCARPE 1918 (emblazoned by the 2nd MG Bn);
          DROCOURT-QUEANT (emblazoned by both the Cdn Fus and the 2nd MG Bn, CEF);
          CANAL du NORD; (emblazoned by both the Cdn Fus and the 2nd MG Bn, CEF);
          CAMBRAI 1918; (emblazoned by 2nd MG Bn);
          FRANCE and FLANDERS 1918 (emblazoned by the 2nd MG Bn, CEF). 

6 - These are the ones that I’m asking about.

Pro Patria

via con Dios

JN Heddle

[Michael OLeary]

For those following this discussion without the resource materials at hand, the following battle honours were authorized to be emblazoned on regimental colours of The RCR and amalgantaed regiments:

The RCR (GO 110, 1929) - Mount Sorrel, Somme '16, Ancre Heights, Vimy 1917, Hill 70, Ypres 1917, Passchendaele, Amiens, Hindenburg Line, Pursuit to Mons

Cdn Fusiliers (GO 110, 1929) - Ypres '15, '17, Festubert 1915, Mount Sorrel, Somme '16, Arras '17, '18, Vimy 1917, Passchendaele, Amiens, Drocourt-Queant, Canal du Nord

The Oxford Rifles (GO 71, 1930) - Somme '16, Arras '17, '18, Hill 70, Ypres 1917, Amiens, Hindenburg Line, Pursuit to Mons

2nd MG Bn (GO 123, 1929) - Amiens, Arras '18, Scarpe '18, Drocourt-Queant, Hindenburg Line, Canal du Nord, Cambrai 1918, Pursuit to Mons, France and Flanders, 1918

2 - Perhaps, I should have added; beyond the authorized 10, to include up to 20. The British Army managed to do this. The Canadian
     Forces have a habit of following the British Army lead - most of the time, but not every time. Will the CF follow, the British lead,
     in the case of our amalgamated Regiments? or has this never been thought of?

I highly suspect that it was thought of, and that's why the regulation was so specific on limiting emblazoned honours to 10 for each of the World Wars, to avoid the inevitable attempts of regiments to try and put all of their honours on their colours.

3 - But, my question was; “Does any one know how the process, to increase emblazoned Battle Honours of amalgamated Regiments,
     starts and progresses to a result, one way or the other?"

That would require a change made in the national regulations.  Perhaps you should write to the Directorate of History and Heritage to ask them what process exists to do this.  Likely, it would require political intervention to change something that has been in effect for so long unless you feel you can present a case that would make DHH re-examine the existing regulations.

4 - The only Battle Honour (from an amalgamated Regiment) to be emblazoned on the Colours of The RCR, was YPRES 1915 (from
     The Canadian Fusiliers (City of London Regiment) (MG)). But, this was easily accomplished, since The RCR had already emblazoned
     YPRES 1917,

Your comment is misleading. The only previously emblazoned honour to be amended was Ypres '17 to "Ypres '15, '17", which also changed its place in the order of emblaxoned battle honours.

In addition to "Ypres", the previously emblazoned honours also continued to recognize the following battle honours which were authorized to be emblazoned for perpetuated and amalgamated units:

The Canadian Fusiliers (From General Order 110 of 1929):

MOUNT SORREL
SOMME '16
VIMY '17
PASSCHENDAELE
AMIENS

The Oxford Rifles (From General Order 71 of 1930, note that connection to specific fighting battalions of the CEF remains to be confirmed):

SOMME '16
HILL 70
YPRES '17
AMIENS
HINDENBURG
PURSUIT TO MONS

2nd Canadian Machine Gun Battalion (CMGC), (From General Order 123 of 1929):

HINDENBURG LINE
PURSUIT TO MONS

Of the ten emblazoned battle honours on the Regimental Colours of The RCR, only one is a unique (emblazoned) honour originally authorized for The RCR.  That honour is ANCRE HEIGHTS.  Note that ANCRE HEIGHTS is also a battle honour of the Canadian Fusiliers (from the 1st Canadian Infantry Battion, CEF), but is was not originally an emblazoned honour of the 1st Cdn Inf Bn or the Fusiliers.

5 - But there are at least 7 other Battle Honours from the amalgamated Regiments that were not emblazoned by The RCR.
     They were as follows :
          FESTUBERT 1915 (emblazoned by Cdn Fus);
          ARRAS 1917 (emblazoned by Ox Rif); '18 (emblazoned by Ox Rif & 2nd MG Bn);
          SCARPE 1918 (emblazoned by the Ox Rif);
          DROCOURT-QUEANT (emblazoned by both the Cdn Fus and the 2nd MG Bn, CEF);
          CANAL du NORD; (emblazoned by both the Cdn Fus and the 2nd MG Bn, CEF);
          CAMBRAI 1918; (emblazoned by 2nd MG Bn);
          FRANCE and FLANDERS 1918 (emblazoned by the 2nd MG Bn, CEF).

6 - These are the ones that I’m asking about.

The way you are posing your comments leads to an inference that The RCR has attempted to be, in some way, exclusionary by have allowed "only one" change to the emblazoned honours.  By focusing on the few honours authorized for emblazonment by perpetuated and amalgamated units that were not also added, you are side-stepping the fact that many of the other honours found on the Regimental Colours are shared by The RCR and the Canadian Fusiliers, the Oxford Rifles and the 2nd Canadian Machine Gun Battalion.

As seen above, all three units (Cdn Fus, Oxford R, 2nd Bn CMGC) are represented in the emblazoned honours, it is not a case of "YPRES" being amended as a simple nod to the Militia.

[Michael OLeary]

A graphic presentation to help with the preceding post is attached below.

The highlighted battle honour names indicate the overlap between those authorized for the Regimental Colours of The RCR with those battle honours previously authorized for emblazonment on the Colours of amalgamated Militia units.

[wheels]

The inference that you mentioned was not deliberate and completely unintended.
Its just that I've been making a study of British Regimental Evolution (which includes Battle Honours) and got to wondering why we did not follow the British lead, in emblazoning up to 20 Battle Honours (for World Wars I & II), in the case of amalgamation.
The British were under the same restrictions as we were (10 Battle Honours only), but they were successful in having the regulation changed to include up to 20 Battle Honours, to be emblazoned, in cases of amalgamation.
Hence the direction of my comments. My apologies if they were taken to mean something else.

Pro Patria

via con Dios

JN Heddle

[bjmaclean]

Very interesting read. I have enjoyed the history lesson. Thanks to Mike Oleary (old friend) and Wheels.

[Dan Martel]

Michael,

I've just recently began to follow this thread and your other writings on The Regiment's battle honours and have found them all quite illuminating.  This leads me to ask the question; am I correct in thinking that the emblazoned Great War battle honours for The Regiment are as follows:

Ypres 1915, '17
Mount Sorrel
Somme, 1916
Ancre Heights
Vimy 1917
Hill 70
Passchendaele
Amiens
Hindenburg Line
Pursuit to Mons

On page 2 in all my back issues of Pro Patria only 9 battle honours are shown in bold type for The Great War.  Ypres 1915, '17 is shown in regular type.

Cheers,
Dan.

PS:  Where you at RHQ when NDHQ tried to foist 'Siberia 1918-19' onto The Regiment a few years ago?  The PPCLI accepted it to perpetuate the 260th Bn CEF.  Apparently we were to perpetuate the 259th Bn.  What was the purpose of all that?